10-3-K The Bat Right Arm Swing? - LynnBlakeGolf Forums

10-3-K The Bat Right Arm Swing?

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Old 04-29-2006, 09:42 PM
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10-3-K The Bat Right Arm Swing?
Originally Posted by Delaware



Yoda,

Why do you say the Four Barrel is a "highly inadvisable" stroke when Homer says "But it can make the difference in top competition". and on page 37 Homer says "Only with the Driver must you use both Pivot Thrust and Power Package Thrust for lack of a longer club". In an early edition of the Golfing Machine Homer published a 4 Barrel Pattern......I hope were not catering to the inexperienced beginner at the expense of the skill seeking amatuer or upcoming professional. A book such as the Golfing Machine should not be presented in a watered down fashion. I received a photo copy of the four barrel pattern from a highly respected Golfing Machine G.S.E.D.. I would suspect that anyone who is driving the ball in the 300 yard range or more is using 10-4-D, Pivot Thrust and Power Package Thrust. I also studied the golf swing with Tom Tomasello who taught the right arm swing and he didn't have braces around his elbow. I would suspect that anyone who has trouble with their right elbow has attempted to use floating with the right arm swing using the 10-3-B pitch basic right arm motion, Tomasello didn't teach the right arm swing with float loading. I believe the proper way to incorporate floating with hitting is with the 10-3-A punch right arm motion. Float Loading with the Pitch right arm motion will put to much pressure on the elbow joint, I can understand why golfers would injure themselves. I've used the right arm swing for 10 years without problems.

Delaware Golf



Thank you for your reply to my post, Delaware Golf. I have reprinted your well-written comments below in normal type. My comments follow in bold type. Let us begin...


Why do you say the Four Barrel is a "highly inadvisable" stroke when Homer says "But it can make the difference in top competition".

Because that is what he told me personally and our five-student GSEM class collectively. I might add that Mike Holder, still the golf coach at Oklahoma State University and whose teams have eight times won the NCAA Championship, was in that same class. If that is not 'top competition,' I don't know what is. Homer's personal feeling was that the disadvantages of the Four Barrel Stroke far outweighed its advantages -- at any level.

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...and on page 37 Homer says "Only with the Driver must you use both Pivot Thrust and Power Package Thrust for lack of a longer club".

Well, if you insist on doing it, that is how it is done. That does not mean it is advisable.

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In an early edition of the Golfing Machine Homer published a 4 Barrel Pattern......

Are you sure? To date, there have been six editions of The Golfing Machine. If what you say is true, and it certainly may be, then the Pattern would had to have been published in the Third Editon. I know that because I own the other five, and here is what they say:

Edition 1. Sample Pattern / Full Stroke --Triple Barrel

Edition 2. Sample Pattern/ Full Stroke -- Triple Barrel

Edition 3. Unknown

Edition 4. Basic Pattern/Hitting -- Double Barrel; Basic Pattern/Swinging -- Triple Barrel

Edition 5. Basic Pattern/Hitting -- Double Barrel; Basic Pattern/Swinging -- Triple Barrel

Edition 6. Basic Pattern/Hitting -- Double Barrel; Basic Pattern/Swinging -- Triple Barrel

Edition 7, a work in progress at the time of Homer's death, is now on the drawing boards. My guess it is more of the same.

It is interesting to note that in his early editions, Homer published one Full Stroke Pattern accompanied by Short Stroke and Putting Pattern. He labeled each a "Sample Pattern." It is these patterns that some teachers have incorrectly taken to be gospel. In his later editions, he published two "Basic Patterns," one for Hitting and one for Swinging. There were no separate Patterns for Short Strokes or Putting. His conviction was that there was no need to change one's Basic Pattern for different shots. Instead, one needed only to change the Component Variations comprising that Basic Pattern.

Regarding his earlier Sample Patterns, he told me personally -- and somewhat huffily -- "Those were just what I said they were: Samples. I wasn't recommending anything!" Whether he was or he wasn't is between him and his Maker, and at this point that issue has long been decided. But I can tell you this: There is no way that Homer Kelley believed at the time of his death (or even as early as the 4th edition in 1979) that the Sample Patterns of Editions 1 and 2 were ideal.

For example, Component #6 (Plane Angle/Basic) and Component #7 (Plane Ange/Variation) of Editions 1 and 2 are listed as the Elbow Plane and the Double Shift respectively. From Edition 4 on, for both Hitting and Swinging Basic Patterns, these same components were listed as the Turned Shoulder Plane and the Zero Variation. In other words, the Sample Patterns of the first two editions included a beginning Elbow Plane, a shift off that Plane to the Turned Shoulder Plane, followed by a shift back to the Elbow Plane in the Downstroke. The Basic Patterns of the later editions involved solely the Turned Shoulder Plane on both the BackStroke and Downstroke and with Zero Shifts.

Personally, I think Homer came to believe that the Clubshaft Plane paled in comparison to the Sweetspot Plane. And while the Clubshaft must start its journey on its original angle of inclination, the Sweetspot Plane has no such limitation. Despite the Adjusted Address Position of the Clubshaft, the Sweetspot can (and ideally should) be Started-Up immediately on the Turned Shoulder Plane. The Player accomplishes this through the Magic of the Right Forearm executing the Three Dimensional Backstroke (per 2-F, 2-N, and 7-3). Obviously this is a revolutionary concept.

As an example, I taught a school at Sawgrass in 1984, and Gary Wiren, then the PGA Director of Instruction, flew in and attended. I've got photos of him in his blue blazer with the PGA patch using our big-faced, yellow toy club to learn the Three Hinge Actions. During our discussion of the Inclined Plane -- and at the break! -- he contended that there must be a shift of the Plane in the Downstroke, down and to the inside-out per Ben Hogan's book Five Lessons.

I patiently explained and illustrated -- more than once -- Homer's correct teaching that the Plane absolutely does not shift to the inside out! Instead, I showed him how the Clubhead simply contines to travel down the face of the same Plane until it reaches its Low Point. And until that happens, the Clubhead will automatically be moving Outward (as well, of course, as Downward and Forward per the Three Dimensional Downstroke of 2-D-0).

I'm not sure he ever got it -- at least on that day -- but I do know he left shaking his head and with his Incubator on a full Code Red Alert. Obviously, there had been a wrench of the concepts, which is apparently what is happening in your case. But no matter. Facts are facts, and that is all there is to it.


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I hope you were not catering to the inexperienced beginner at the expense of the skill seeking amatuer or upcoming professional. A book such as the Golfing Machine should not be presented in a watered down fashion.

Please. After more than 40 substantive posts in just seven days, you should know me better than that. If not, refer to my answer above about Homer's recommendation to Mike Holder in our class. Specifically: Don't teach your ("top") college players a Four Barrel Stroke. Its disadvantages far outweigh its advantages.

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I received a photo copy of the four barrel pattern from a highly respected Golfing Machine G.S.E.D..

It's good to share, and I'm happy he did. And out of curiosity, I'd like to see it. But so what? Homer would be the last to say you shouldn't have a Four Barrel Pattern if that's what you really wanted. In fact, I can hear him now, "If you want to do it, fly at it!" That's why he put blank Stroke Patterns in all his editions, so that Players could make up their own Patterns.

The bottom line for me on this issue is that it really doesn't matter because I know what the man himself actually believed and taught (at least in his later years). Not to mention the fact that I actually understand the problem, which you will find out three paragraphs from now. You might want to send a copy of this thread to the GSED who sent you the Four Barrel Pattern. Like Gary Wiren, he might learn something. He might not like it. But he might learn something.

In G.O.L.F. and in life we tend to kill the messenger when presented with unpleasant news. But that doesn't change the way things actually are. No matter how we perceive them to be or how we want them to be, they will remain just as they actually are. As Homer often said, "Science takes the 'seems as if' out of things."

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I would suspect that anyone who is driving the ball in the 300 yard range or more is using 10-4-D, Pivot Thrust and Power Package Thrust.

You are mistaken. And now we're at the essence of the question. First of all, for the record, the Hitter using Pivot Thrust to supply the initial acceleration of his loaded Power Package (per 2-M-4) is not the same thing as a Four Barrel Stroke. And for the Swinger, Right Arm Muscle Power can add precious little to the tremendous Centrifugal Power his Three Barrel G.O.L.F. technique will generate. Further, his attempt to achieve that precious little extra by activating his Passive Right Arm (beyond the slight triceps activity necessary to maintain the Extensor Action) comes wrapped with a huge downside. The Hitter faces a similar problem when he attempts to add Centrifugal Pull to his normal Muscular Thrust. Here's the key: For both Hitters and Swingers, the two Actions -- one a PUSH and the other a PULL -- are simply incompatible.

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I also studied the golf swing with Tom Tomasello who taught the right arm swing and he didn't have braces around his elbow.

First of all, the Right Arm Swinger's Elbow "supports" reference at the end of my original post was an attempt to close with humor. So, maybe we should all lighten up a bit and take some things as they are intended. Nevetheless, what I've said is true, and I've seen plenty of guys on the course, on the range, and in the grill to prove it. Like dogs that chase cars and tour players who three-putt, Right Arm Swingers -- I didn't say Hitters! -- don't last.

But since you've addressed the issue...Are we talking short shots per 7-19 and 10-3-K? Or are we talking Full Pivot Strokes with Maximum Lag Pressure? Teaching either Motion will not result in an elbow brace, so Tommy was safe. However, actually Playing and Practicing that way, particularly as the Basic Pattern Variation on your full shots, day after day over a long period, almost certainly will. The Right Elbow simply is not built to take that kind of punishment. It's the same reason baseball pitchers throw their arm out despite the heavy-duty TLC they give the arm until they do.

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I would suspect that anyone who has trouble with their right elbow has attempted to use floating with the right arm swing using the 10-3-B pitch basic right arm motion. Float Loading with the Pitch right arm motion will put to much pressure on the elbow joint, I can understand why golfers would injure themselves. [Italics are Yoda's]

We've agreed at last. That's definitely one way to get it done. However, now I know where your problem is. Keep reading.

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Tomasello didn't teach the right arm swing with float loading.

Okay...?

***************
I believe the proper way to incorporate floating with hitting is with the 10-3-A punch right arm motion.

We agree again! But, pray tell, what does all this have to do with Right Arm Swing? The "10-3-A punch right arm motion" is not Right Arm Swing. It is is one of the three Major Basic Strokes!

***************
I've used the right arm swing for 10 years without problems.

With all due respect, I don't think so. Right Arm Swing, by definition locates the Swing Center in the Right Elbow per 10-3-K and is executed with loosened Wrists per 7-19. Otherwise, per 1-F, "the Left Arm is ALWAYS SWINGING and the Right Forearm is ALWAYS DRIVING," i.e., the Right Arm is not Swinging. In 1-F of the First and Second Editions, Homer was even more emphatic: "But the Right Arm is never 'swung.' It is always and unfailing 'driven' -- actively or passively -- toward the Aiming Point or to Impact Hand position."

So, here's your problem: What you are calling Right Arm Swing is in reality simply the correct use of the Major Basic Strokes of 10-3. Tommy Tomasello -- who I knew for the last 25 years of his life -- wasn't teaching you Right Arm Swing. He was teaching you the Punch Basic Stroke!

However, in the off chance you really are swinging the Right Arm, let me caution you against attempting a Four Barrel Stroke. With the #1 Accumulator (the Driving Right Arm) now replaced by the Swinging (not Driving) Right Arm, it is impossible. You simply cannot Swing and Hit with the same Arm at the same time. End of Story.

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Old 04-30-2006, 02:10 PM
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The Right Elbow Center CE#60
Originally Posted by dlaville
Originally Posted by mgjordan

"But it is always a Left Arm Stroke unless the Right Elbow replaces the Left Shoulder as the center of the Clubhead Arc. (10-3-K)"



Simply translated that means when you bend your left arm the clubhead arc will be around your right elbow and not your left shoulder. As long as swing with a straight left arm the clubhead arc will be around your left shoulder and hence a left arm stroke.


You're putting up a lot of good stuff, David. Welcome aboard!

On this one, though, we don't quite see eye-to-eye. Bending the Left Arm does not negate a Left Arm Stroke and cause its Center to be transferred to the Right Elbow. Instead, a bending Left Arm most likely means a Left Arm Stroke that has inadvertantly lost its Maximum Swing Radius. The solution to that problem is the Extensor Action (6-B-1-D) and the precision Left Shoulder-to-Ball Address Routine of 2-J-1.

The Right Elbow Center is just what it says. Namely, you Hit (or Swing per the last paragraph) from the Elbow itself. It is a Stiff-Wristed "Batting" Motion with the Right Arm Driving the Club and with the Elbow serving as the Center of the Motion.

The Minor Basic Stroke that employs this Transferred Center is The Bat (10-3-K). With its Right Arm Drive, Rigid Right Wrist and Angled Club Extension, the usually mandatory Flat Left Wrist is now helpful but not essential. Hence, a tip-off to its use is the ability to hit hard with a slightly Bent Left Wrist at Impact and even to throw the Club in-line with the Right Arm during the Follow-through.

Also, per my post above, using The Bat with loosened Wrists per 7-19 and with Longitudinal Acceleration (the Club being Pulled from the Top lengthwise by the Right Arm) per 7-19-3, will produce the Right Arm Swing with its Center at the Right Elbow.

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