The first of Homer Kelley's 24
Stroke Components is The Grip (Basic). This describes the physical act of
'taking hold' of the Club. The last of the 24 Components is The Release, and
this describes the figurative act of 'releasing' the Club.
From The Top, the true and proper direction for Club to move is Down
Plane -- Down Plane to Full Extension -- regardless of its incidental
appearance of moving forward (2-K). For The Truth, grab a left and
right handful of mayonnaise and grip a weedcutter or garden hoe. Now address
an imaginary Ball and make your best swing. ["Be the Ball." -- Bill
Murray ] The weedcutter will not
fly downrange toward the target. Instead, it will fly straight into the
ground, probably directly at the Target Line and well behind the Ball.
As always, I greatly appreciate your response Lynn. I'm still not sure that I've been clear enough on my
question though, so perhaps I'll phrase it another way, as it relates to the
flail.
As a hypothetical - if you had a completely verticle plane/plane angle, with
a fixed center from which a flail swung perfectly verticle, in plane, with
two hinges below the fixed center, all hinge motion on plane:
with a pure swinging motion, even tempo, (pendulum) the flail would stay
straight, there would be no hinging and the flail would swing back and
through as if one solid radius
If you change the ratio/tempo of the backswing to forward swing to 3 to 1 by
putting a force directly against the first hinge below center you have
created hinge motion at the change of direction, you have created LAG and the
two lower sections of the flail would be out of line until a point on the
forward motion where the hinge/flail would again be straight, and eventually
pass the 'in line' condition.
The angle of the force applied would change at what point the flail would be
straight again (as does the tempo/change of direction ratio).
At what point in the circle would you/Homer consider the best place for
the flail to be straight, and what would the required angle of force on the
first hinge be?
[Bold by Yoda/Yoda.]
Thanks to Digger's 'death match' wake-up call, let me answer your question in
a way that will benefit more readers of this site:
The Golfer's Flail (2-K) will reach Full Extension, i.e., go from Level
(4-B-1) to Uncocked (4-B-3), an inch or two past Impact. The Thrust of the
Stroke will continue Downplane (toward the Plane Line) until the Right Elbow
has Fully Straightened.
At what point on the plane line is the thrust directed to ensure that both
arms straight occurs just past impact?
In the example I gave, what would the angle of the flail be with the
ground when it returned to its fully in line condition?
[Bold by Yoda/Yoda.]
The Follow-Through (8-11) defines the Full Extension of both
Arms, and it does not normally occur "just past Impact."
Instead, what does occur is the Full Extension of the Primary Lever
Assembly -- the Left Arm and Club (the Golfer's Flail) -- as the Right
Elbow remains Bent.
The Point of Thrust necessary to ensure both the above conditions is the Ball
(when its Location agrees with the unique Straightaway Flight requirement of
the Golf Club being used) or alternatively, a compensating Aiming Point
(6-E-2).
Regarding the angle of the Flail with the Ground, Full Extension (Angular
Momentum per 2-K #2) occurs theoretically at Low Point, and the Flail would
be perpendicular (90 degrees) to the Plane Line. However, in practice, the
actual angle to the Plane Line -- the Forward Lean -- is dependent upon (and
therefore determined by) the Shoulder-To-Ball Angle of the Left Arm Flying
Wedge at Impact Fix.
Just to clarify, Homer assumes the flail begins at the left shoulder joint?
If so, how does he account for the shoulder line in the physics of the flail?
It could be argued that the flail begins in the RIGHT shoulder at the other
extreme, and that the downward thrust of the right shoulder is the 'driving
force'.
But in either of those cases, there is no STABLE CENTER for the flail to be
fixed to, unless it is the point in the center of the shoulder line, and the
flail of force, the first 'link' in the flail is not a body part, but a line
in 3 dimensional space from the center of the shoulder line to PP1 - in which
case both arms straight past impact is EXACTLY when the true flail of force
is again in line.
I remain open to being convinced otherwise, but your statement of:
-- is dependent upon (and therefore determined by) the Shoulder-To-Ball Angle
of the Left Arm Flying Wedge at Impact Fix.
Would seem to support my position of 'hugging' the 'first link' of the flail,
as would the added benefit of ensuring the ball is long, long gone before
true throw away could occur. All of the impact conditions Homer described
would still hold true, but this removes the question of:
However, in practice, the actual angle to the Plane Line -- the Forward Lean
-- is dependent upon (and therefore determined by) the Shoulder-To-Ball Angle
of the Left Arm Flying Wedge at Impact Fix.
In other words, it is the hands to shoulder line relationship, the hands
(PP1) moving around the fixed center between the shoulders/base of the neck.
I'm not trying to discredit Homer, or anyone else, just trying to understand
something that doesn't add up about the left shoulder being the begining of
the flail - the lack of a stable center to create true rotational force
Thanks - EdZ
My answers have assumed the Scientific Principles and Terminology of The
Golfing Machine and are correct within that context.
Though I hoped otherwise, I suspected a hidden agenda in your line of
questioning and am not surprised to see it surface. If you wish to redefine the Flail (and you apparently do) as an ethereal 'line in
three-dimensional space' connecting the Center of the Shoulder Turn to the #1
Pressure Point -- or from the Right Foot to the #3 Pressure Point, for that
matter -- then be my guest. My only request is that, in the future, please
inform me of any non-TGM compliant personal definitions in advance of
an extensive discussion and not in arrears.
My only agenda is to learn more, and to help others learn more, about playing
great golf. If TGM can do that, I'm all for it, 100%. I have nothing to hide,
nobody to discredit. This left shoulder flail bit makes no sense to me,
and I'm respectfully seeking your wisedom on the matter.
So if 'redefine' in your book means asking about something in TGM that
makes no sense to me, then yes, I am redefining. Whatever you want to
call it, I seek to understand, and this seems a very critical point to
understand. The flail is the core of the entire swing. I have no argument at
all with the basic science presented by Homer. In fact, the science supports
my view.
So in the spirit of learning, convince me why Homer had it right and the
shoulder line isn't considered part of the flail, only the left shoulder?
It makes no sense unless you have a left arm only stroke with zero pivot or
shoulder turn and only right arm thrust. Efficient rotational motion must
have a stable center.
[Bold by Yoda/Yoda.]
My mission on this site is to teach the Principles and Procedures of The
Golfing Machine, not to convince others that their own concepts are
invalid (though that is often the unavoidable by-product of the
mission). And 'rededfining' is not "asking about something in TGM that
makes no sense to me." Instead, it is conciously rejecting a straightforward
tenet of TGM and replacing it with one's own.
This is what you have done with The Golfer's Flail, and as I've said, I have
no problem with that. But let's tell it like it is and be upfront about it
before asking someone -- namely me -- to invest time answering a question you
knew full well in advance would not -- indeed, could not -- be
answered according to your own undisclosed definition.
That said, I will address your question as to why Homer did not include the
shoulder line as part of the Flail.
The Golfer's Flail -- the Left Arm and Club -- is the Primary Lever Assembly
(6-A-2) that ultimately applies Force to the Ball. It is attached to the Body
at the Left Shoulder. Pivot Lag -- Body Power for Swingers and
Launching Pad for Hitters -- is the 'gear train' that uses multiple Centers
(Shoulders, Hips and Knees) to extend the Swing Radius of the Flail to any
point from the Shoulder Turn to the Feet (6-C-0). However, this 'gear train
extension' is not the Flail itself. It is the mechanism by which
the Flail is accelerated.
Now, if the above explanation of The Golfer's Flail "makes no
sense" to you, well...it makes no sense (to you). I've
done my job, i.e., I've 'informed and explained' to the best of my ability,
and you have chosen to reject the concept. Fine. As I've said, if you want to
consider the Flail as an ethereal 'line of force' in three-dimensional space
from the mid-point of the shoulders to the Hands, then that is your decision.
Just know that it is not the TGM concept, and the burden of proof, therefore,
is on you, not me
With all due respect Lynn, you defend TGM based on science and then ignore it.
A rotational FORCE needs a stable CENTER.
I completely understand what the 'pivot train' is you/Homer describe but it
is not based on science of a rotational force needing a stable center, nor is
it allowing for the complex anatomy of the human body in generating said
force vectors of an object held in both hands.
If you insist on keeping your analysis strickly to the letter of TGM, than I
have to say I can only conclude that TGM is incorrect in this area. As much
as it appears to Homer that the left shoulder is the begining of the flail,
it simply can not be and be an effective, efficient rotational force because
it MOVES. The left shoulder is simply another hinge in the flail. A
perspective difference to be sure. As I said, one can argue the flail begins
in the RIGHT shoulder too, but neither of those cases account for the needed
stable center of an efficient rotational force. The only one that does is a
center point between the shoulders. This also explains hitting vs. swinging,
pull vs. push and many of the other 'do one or the other' parts of TGM. It
also explains why both arms straight is a KEY position, and Homer knew that.
If you look at almost any good swing, you can trace a circle of the hands,
around the center point I am talking about, base of the neck, between the
shoulders.
If the body is the 'pivot train' as you say, than how do you account for a
hitter's motion where the right arm thrust is the mechanism of thrust?
Lynn - if
my perspective makes no sense to you, I appologize for wasting your time, and
that of anyone else who feels I am incorrect. I'm not here to piss anyone
off, or to discredit anything, simply to learn and contribute to better
understanding.
Look, Ed, this is a free forum, and you are entitled to your opinions and
have every right discuss them. Likewise, other participants can choose
to agree with or debate those opinions. That's the whole purpose of this
forum and why it is so named.
My only 'problem' here is that you asked me to answer very specific, detailed
questions regarding the Flail -- which I did -- and then blindsided me with
your 'revelation in arrears' that my efforts were essentially for naught
because they were based on the 'wrong' Flail, i.e., the TGM Flail (and not
your own). Hence, the waste of time. Further, I was not given the opportunity
to choose whether or not I wanted to respond to your questions based
on your personal concept of the Flail. Which I don't. Nothing personal,
understand; it's just not why I'm here.
Anway, no big deal. You contribute a lot to this forum and others, and I
appreciate your efforts. We'll meet again and no doubt wrangle away on
another topic. Meanwhile...
You hit it with your Flail, and I'll hit it with mine.
I've given specific reasons to support my view, none of which have
been refuted by anything other than "because Homer said so" and the
areas which SHOW my view is correct, are dismissed or glossed
over such as:
"However, in practice, the actual angle to the Plane Line -- the
Forward Lean -- is dependent upon (and therefore determined by)
the Shoulder-To-Ball Angle of the Left Arm Flying Wedge at Impact Fix."
[Bold by Yoda/Yoda.]
First of all, my quoted response above was made while you were still asking
questions and before you disclosed your own "view." So, at
the time, there was no "view" to "support,"
"dismiss," or "gloss over."
Further, my comment was quite specific and did not "gloss over"
anything. You asked what angle the Flail (the assembly of Left Arm and Club)
makes with the ground when it gets In Line (given a vertical plane of
motion). I replied that the theoretical answer was 90 degrees since
the Flail gets In Line at Low Point (and therefore with Zero Forward Lean per
2-K #2).
But we seldom locate the Ball at Low Point. We locate it behind Low
Point. Hence, from a practical standpoint, the Flail usually gets In
Line well before Low Point, thus creating a Forward Lean of the Left
Arm Flying Wedge (the Left Arm and Clubshaft) and an angle greater than 90
degrees. That precise angle is dependent upon the degree of Forward
Lean at Fix. And that is exactly what I said.
Specifically, the degree of "Flail Lean" at Full Extension (In
Line) will be determined by the distance the Left Hand must move (from
its Impact Fix Location) as the Wrist completes its Uncocking Motion (from
Level to Uncocked).
By definition, low point means the FARTHEST from center that the rotational
force obtains (regardless of its orientation to the ground) - full radius
The HANDS are at their farthest point away from the body, and hence the swing
center, when both arms are straight. The club is in the hands, hence the
clubhead is, by definition, farthest away from center at both arms straight.
That is, unless there is bending/arch of the wrists.
Agreed?
Uh...no.
Not agreed.
1. The terms 'Low Point' and 'Radius' are not interchangeable. The Low
Point of the Golf Stroke -- which is what we're talking about here --
occurs when the Stroke Radius (the Left Arm and Club Assembly) points
directly at the Ground. This is axiomatic...self-evident...the way things actually
are (no matter how we may perceive them to be or wish them
to be).
2. The maximum distance of the Clubhead from the Body -- its Left Shoulder or
its 'Center' or its whatever -- is detetermined by the length of the Radius.
And, as stated, that Radius is the Left Arm and Club. Hence, the
Clubhead is at its farthest distance from the Body when the Left Arm
is Straight. The condition of the Right Arm -- Straight or Bent -- is
irrelevant.
Why would you feel that way? I'm not trying to play games Lynn, I'm trying to learn.
[Bold and color by Yoda/Yoda.]
Welcome, everybody, to The EdZ Jumbled
Jeopardy Game. And now, here's our
host, EdZ!
EdZ: Today's special guest is Yoda. Everybody ready? Here we go!
All right, Yoda, what category would you like?
Yoda: I'll take The Golfing Machine.
EdZ: Ah, good choice there, Yoda. First question, Flails
for $200, What is the correct angle of the flail to the Ground at full
extension?
Yoda: Theoretically, 90 degrees, but in practice, it can vary.
EdZ (Pressing Red Wrong!
Buzzer):
AAANNNNNNHHH!!! Sorry, Yoda! That's not the Flail I was talking
about. Mine is invisible and connects the shoulders with the Hands. Ready for
another question?
Yoda: I'll take Low Points for $300.
EdZ: Another good choice! True or False: The Low Point is always
under the ground.
Yoda: False. Depends on where you locate the Low Point at Fix.
EdZ (Pressing Red Wrong!
Buzzer):
AAANNNNNNHH!!!! Wrong again, Yoda, my man. I was talking about the Low
Point of The Force, not of the Club. Want to try again?
Yoda: <No response.>
EdZ: I said, Yoda, want to try again? How about 'Circles' for
$400?
EdZ's Assistant: Sorry, Mr. Z, but Yoda has left the building.
Said something about forgetting an appointment to get a root canal.
Interesting response Lynn, despite the school yard fun that some of the pups here
have had, and your encouragement of it with this post, you have still not
addressed my points, you have avoided them. "but... but, my answers
are correct within the context of TGM" say you.... homer was 'factually'
correct (aside from that unstable center to a rotational force that defies
the laws of physics, effecient rotational force)
clearly we disagree about the definition and location of flail, Ringer summed
this up well, yet you have not addressed the fact that the only TRUE full
extension of the swinging 'circular' force is that of both arms straight. It
is also clear that while Homer understood its importance, he didn't
understand WHY - and that is where the flail I am talking about comes in and
explains it. It also explains hitting vs. swinging, and why the mind is in
the hands.
] The weedcutter will not
Hybrid Mode
