Credit where credit is due . . .and other stuff GM#81
Originally Posted by brianmanzella
When people just quote the book, and no one adds any real world experience, and there is no debate (because someone says they have the 'tapes')...what the heck is their to talk about?
Credit where credit is due . . . and other stuff GM#88
Originally Posted by jj
Originally Posted by Yoda
Originally Posted by brianmanzella
Get me on that ship, Lynn.
This is a GREAT post and mostly what it speaks to is YEARLY Golfing Machine SUMMITS. A place where we all gather to share, debate, question, learn, improve, change a mind or two, become better pals...
...and ADVANCE GOLF and G.O.L.F.
...what time is the ship leaving?
Brian,
I am 100 percent in favor of an annual TGM Summit. Any ideas as to an ideal format, e.g., time of year, site, length of conference, format, organizing committee members, speaker and content selection, main platform presentations versus breakout sessions, cost, sponsorship opportunities, etc.?
Like to see a section called "Homer, Let me prove you're wrong" or something like that.
Credit where credit is due . . .and other stuff GM#95
Originally Posted by Yoda
Originally Posted by jj
Originally Posted by Yoda
Originally Posted by brianmanzella
Get me on that ship, Lynn.
This is a GREAT post and mostly what it speaks to is YEARLY Golfing Machine SUMMITS. A place where we all gather to share, debate, question, learn, improve, change a mind or two, become better pals...
...and ADVANCE GOLF and G.O.L.F.
...what time is the ship leaving?
Brian,
I am 100 percent in favor of an annual TGM Summit. Any ideas as to an ideal format, e.g., time of year, site, length of conference, format, organizing committee members, speaker and content selection, main platform presentations versus breakout sessions, cost, sponsorship opportunities, etc.?
Like to see a section called "Homer, Let me prove you're wrong" or something like that.
Partially quoting Dirty Harry:
"Do you feel lucky, ....?"
My Quote above, "Do you feel lucky?" was made in good humor -- hopefully everybody could see that without a being attached -- and simply to point out that anyone who would prove Homer Kelley wrong has their work cut out for them.
Homer would be the last person to discourage a challenge to his work. In fact, he always encouraged his students to bring to his attention any 'errors and omissions' they came up with. All he asked was that one leave personal opinion at the door and be prepared to do as he had already done: namely, support his or her position with scientific proof. As many readers of this Forum know, Dr. Gary Wiren, then head of education for the PGA, sometime in the 1970s had Homer's work scrutinized for factual errors by engineering academics. None were found.
Personally, I feel that any such debate could only serve to clarify the concepts involved and strengthen the knowledge of all who participate. That said, in any match-up, I'll take Homer and give lots of points!
"The race goes not always to the swift;
Nor the battle to the strong.
But...
That's the way to bet!"
Credit where credit is due . . . and other stuff GM#97
Originally Posted by brianmanzella
Yes Yoda, Bill Skelley.
All of us should be appalled at Bill profiting from Homer's work without given Homer credit.
But, amazingly, no one was. Why? (You won't answer that)
I know that people like sprited debate, they learn more that way becuase it is less boring.
I can't WAIT for the day all of the AI's get to read and listen to ALL of Homer's work and then we can DEBATE on what we THINK he meant.
[Bold by Yoda.]
Brian,
I have no idea why you have begun this one-man character assault on Bill Skelley. Nor do I know why you have challenged me to “answer.” But, since he is not here to defend himself and since my silence might lead Forum readers to a wrong conclusion, I am responding to your post.
For the record, I, for one, am not appalled at your indictment; namely, “…Bill profiting from Homer’s work without giving Homer credit.” Bill Skelley was not an Authorized Instructor nor did he ever seek to become one. While he was clearly trained -- by me -- in the science and procedures of TGM, he delivered his instruction in conventional terms (such as pivot, plane and wristcock). To my knowledge, in his seminars and on the tee, he never used TGM terminology, e.g., such staples as 'Power Accumulator,' 'Hinge Action' or even 'Plane Line.' Nor were there any efforts to identify the 24 Components (much less their Variations), Hitting versus Swinging, the Stroke Patterns or the science of Chapter 2.
The fact is that Bill taught a very effective, but conventional golf swing. If you pressed him, he would explain centrifugal force. But in teaching these concepts he was not plagarizing the work of Homer Kelley, whose first edition of TGM appeared in 1969. The truth is that Bill taught principles that were already considered fundamental when Ernest Jones wrote his first book in 1920 and 'old hat' by the time his definitive Swing The Clubhead rolled off the presses in 1952.
In his teaching, Bill explained the principles of the flail and the flat left wrist, and those principles can be found in 2-K and 4-D-1 of TGM. So what? I first read about the 'farmer's flail' in Phil Galvano's book in 1963, six years before Homer's first edition. And that same year, I was taught by George Preisinger on his lesson tee at the Marietta Country Club to keep my left wrist flat and roll my left forearm through the ball. We didn't know that six years later those items would be labeled respectively the First Imperative and Power Accumulator #3. [We did know it stopped my shank! ] In 1968, still a year before the first edition of TGM, I was reminded of those lessons by both Grant Bennett and Melvin Hemphill, then two of South Carolina's finest teaching professionals.
So, Bill taught the Classic Golf Swing that had been 'sliced and diced' from here to Sunday long before Bobby Jones won his Grand Slam in 1930. In fact, other than TGM itself, the most accurate -- and still the most 'readable' -- descriptions I’ve encountered of the Left Shoulder Stroke Center, the proper use of the Right Arm and Elbow, and the differing but coordinating Planes of Motion of the Clubhead and the Right Shoulder – were written and wonderfully illustrated in 1927 by Bob MacDonald in his classic book entitled simply Golf.
Interestingly, Bill's work was more of a revival of the Classic Golf Swing rather than a revelation of a 'new' golf swing. By the 1970s, the Classic Swing had fallen into disrepute. 'Modern' Teachers had replaced it with 'Model' Methods built not on science or even proven performance. Instead, they relied on suspect 'logic' and 'seems as if' to justify their claims of superiority. Bill Skelley was an effective teacher because he taught a 'Classic Golf Swing' that worked, not a 'Modern Model Method' that 'theory' said should work...but didn't.
That said, and lending your indictment more credence than it deserves, I wondered if Bill's written word might have varied from his spoken word. To find the answer, I went to my library and pulled from the shelf his student manual, the Bill Skelley School of Golf Instructional Manual. Again, we find the ubiquitous references to the Flat Left Wrist, the Rotating Left Forearm, the Grip – Bill used the standard labels of Neutral, Strong and Weak – and pages of conventional instruction regarding the Turn, Ball Position and Alignment.
Along the way, I did find one reference to ‘low point’ and another to impact being ‘down, out and forward.’ Also, he advised using the right forefinger to sense Clubhead feel -- but then again, so did Tommy Armour in his 1950 classic How To Play Your Best Golf All The Time and Ben Hogan in his 1957 Five Lessons.
Oh, and on page 12, I also found this:
“To quote the late, great Homer Kelley, author of that highly scientific text, The Golfing Machine, the ‘hands are the command post.’”
So, where's the beef? I think the real questions are:
1. Why are you coming after Bill?
2. Why now, after so many years?
3. And why on this Forum only (and not your own)?
What possible purpose could this discussion serve? I leave it to the readers to draw their own conclusions.
And regarding debating what Homer 'really meant,' either in his book or on private recordings, I bring more disconcerting news:
Homer Kelley had this annoying habit of saying exactly what he intended to say. There was no 'trick' terminology and there were no hidden agendas. He simply wanted golfers everywhere to have the correct information.
For twenty years, Bill Skelley delivered the correct information to thousands of men, women and children across the United States. He built his business from scratch without the aid of any of golf's publishing powerhouses or PGA TOUR Kingmakers. He taught; he entertained; and he represented the golf teaching profession with dignity and professionalism. He was, and is, a gentleman.
The problem is not Bill Skelley, Brian. The problem is...
I'm glad to see that the book and folks like Yoda, Brian, Chuck and Laville
among many-many others changed not only your swing but your vocabulary.
The teacher can change nothing. He can only 'inform and explain,'
i.e., be a catalyst for change. It is the student who must
'absorb and apply.' When that happens, he should get full credit.
being attached -- and simply to point out that anyone who would prove Homer Kelley wrong has their work cut out for them.
Linear Mode
