Turning Shoulder Plane

Let's discuss Turning Shoulder Plane for a while. And don't worry, I do not actually want to use it. Just perusing the book for items I don't fully understand, yet.

Per Chapter 11, the Basic Plane Angle (Club Shaft Angle) for the Turning Shoulder Plane is: Squared Shoulder Location. That's consistent with picture 10-6-D #1. And also with its name "Turning Shoulder" Plane. 7-6 says that each Basic Plane is named for its particular reference point and that one of them (must be the Turning Shoulder Plane) has a moving reference point.

So, to be On Plane with a Turning Shoulder Plane Angle the Shaft always has to be on a Plane that runs through the right shoulder. At Address the right shoulder is in its Squared Shoulder Location, so the Shaft has to be effectively on a Squared Shoulder Plane. As the shoulders turn on the backstroke, the right shoulder moves "in", and the effective Plane Angle of a Turning Shoulder Plane flattens. At the Top, it will effectively have become a Turned Shoulder Plane.

In order to address the ball with the Shaft on a Squared Shoulder Plane, Accumulator #3 has to be zeroed out almost completely (either by uncocking the Left Wrist at Address or by having the grip almost in the cup of the left hand).

BUT, in the early editions of TGM (up to the 3rd edition), Homer said about the Turning Shoulder Basic Plane Angle:

Quote:

it can develop enormous #3 Accumulator travel and energy.

So my first question is: How can the Turning Shoulder Plane develop enormous #3 Accumulator travel and energy if Acc. #3 has to be zeroed out almost completely in order to get the shaft on the proper Basic Plane Angle to begin with?

In later editions (4th and 5th) Homer wrote in 10-6-D:

Quote:

This procedure is the basis of the "Double Shift" (10-7-C). The Single Shift (10-7-B) and the Reverse Shift (10-7-E) merely substitute a Straight Line Path for the Angled Path in one direction.

Double Shift, Single Shift and Reverse Shift all use the Elbow Plane, which is a much flatter Plane Angle than the effective Plane Angles that the turning right shoulder locates. And, in fact, the effective Plane Angle changes that go along with a Turning Shoulder Plane are even opposite to those that occurr with Double Shift, Single Shift and Reverse Shift: With a Turning Shoulder Plane, the effective Plane Angle flattens on the backstroke and steepens on the downstroke. With the Double Shift, the Plane Angle steepens on the backstroke and flattens on the downstroke.

So, question #2: What is the meaning of this reference to Double Shift, Single Shift and Reverse Shift in the context of the Turning Shoulder Plane?

Finally (question #3), what about a player who addresses the ball with the Club on the Elbow Plane and then either (a) takes the Clubhead straight back from the ball by raising the Arms vertically and imparting rotation from the Pivot (like 10-6-D, Procedure A.), or (b) moves his Arms straight back (like 10-6-D, Procedure B.)? What Plane Angle would he be using? Would that be considered a shift from Elbow Plane to Turning Shoulder Plane? A legitimate deviation of Turning Shoulder Plane? Or just an "X"?

Originally Posted by Par71

Let's discuss Turning Shoulder Plane for a while. And don't worry, I do not actually want to use it.

First off, you CAN use it you wish. Many Majors have been won with it.

You might not want to pick it as a procedure to begin learning the game with but if mastered , through the ball , properly executed, it is geometrically correct . But mechanically complicated which one could logically assume to tend towards more inconsistency. I said logically, uh Furyks component pattern seems to be pretty consistent and long lasting. His "machine" has been producing excellent impact dynamics consistently and for a long time now.

Re Furyk his swing can be explained in terms of plane theory , easily , despite its apparent non planar first appearances . . Put simply his Plane Angle is CONSTANTLY shifting . Up up up and down down down . An almost literal VERTICAL DROP in transition.

Homer in his day , the day of sky high hands encountered a lot of Turning Shoulder Plane golfers . In the book he offers that it is the most common procedure ..... it isnt any more. While he might not teach that procedure to a beginning golfer , faced with one on the lesson tee he had to decide whether to retrain them or not. Often he wouldnt . In these instances he would improve their Turning Shoulder Plane procedure .

IMO , if Furyk showed up at Lynns lesson tee I dont think Lynn would teach him a Turned Shoulder Plane . But Lynn could work with his procedure as is .... fine tune it , if you will. And how many instructors are capable of doing that? No offence intended but imagine Furyk working with a teacher who teaches a one plane theory of some sort! We'd probably never see him again on tv. His components, different than most that they are .... form a workable whole. Take for instance the very beginning of his swing; his Steering of the clubhead straight back in Takeaway . Its THE geometrically correct takeaway for his procedure. A teacher who told him to Trace (geometrically correct for most) would be doing him a disservice. Actually Steering the clubhead straight back , Homer reasoned to be the genesis of the procedure as it takes the club out to higher and higher plane angles immediately and progressively.



But I digress, well maybe I touched on your Question #3.

At impact the LCOG of the Golf Club defines a "Plane". The Plane has an Angle. The Angle has 2 reference Points. The COG of the Ball and "Low Point". Homer Kelley substitutes Low Point and identifies various points on your Body as the second reference point. So, we have the Ball as one reference point and various Body related reference points to identify different Plane Angles for the shaft.

The Plane Angle, being a "Component" has an Alignment. One Alignment affects another so its helpful to understand the interaction and strengths and weaknesses for mechanical advantage.

Originally Posted by whip

Oh man this made me laugh

Let me offer you the benefit of the doubt. Maybe you had a real emergency. Maybe you fell asleep and simply forgot the point you were trying to make. Maybe you are a tour PGA player making millions each year and you have a certain reality that precludes being kind in your response for some odd reason?

In any case, If I am mistaken about your intentions being other than sheer ridicule, I'll apologize and delete this post.



ICT

Originally Posted by Par71

Let's discuss Turning Shoulder Plane for a while. And don't worry, I do not actually want to use it. Just perusing the book for items I don't fully understand, yet. Per Chapter 11, the Basic Plane Angle (Club Shaft Angle) for the Turning Shoulder Plane is: Squared Shoulder Location. That's consistent with picture 10-6-D #1. And also with its name "Turning Shoulder" Plane. 7-6 says that each Basic Plane is named for its particular reference point and that one of them (must be the Turning Shoulder Plane) has a moving reference point. So, to be On Plane with a Turning Shoulder Plane Angle the Shaft always has to be on a Plane that runs through the right shoulder. At Address the right shoulder is in its Squared Shoulder Location, so the Shaft has to be effectively on a Squared Shoulder Plane. As the shoulders turn on the backstroke, the right shoulder moves "in", and the effective Plane Angle of a Turning Shoulder Plane flattens. At the Top, it will effectively have become a Turned Shoulder Plane. In order to address the ball with the Shaft on a Squared Shoulder Plane, Accumulator #3 has to be zeroed out almost completely (either by uncocking the Left Wrist at Address or by having the grip almost in the cup of the left hand). BUT, in the early editions of TGM (up to the 3rd edition), Homer said about the Turning Shoulder Basic Plane Angle: So my first question is: How can the Turning Shoulder Plane develop enormous #3 Accumulator travel and energy if Acc. #3 has to be zeroed out almost completely in order to get the shaft on the proper Basic Plane Angle to begin with? In later editions (4th and 5th) Homer wrote in 10-6-D: Double Shift, Single Shift and Reverse Shift all use the Elbow Plane, which is a much flatter Plane Angle than the effective Plane Angles that the turning right shoulder locates. And, in fact, the effective Plane Angle changes that go along with a Turning Shoulder Plane are even opposite to those that occurr with Double Shift, Single Shift and Reverse Shift: With a Turning Shoulder Plane, the effective Plane Angle flattens on the backstroke and steepens on the downstroke. With the Double Shift, the Plane Angle steepens on the backstroke and flattens on the downstroke. So, question #2: What is the meaning of this reference to Double Shift, Single Shift and Reverse Shift in the context of the Turning Shoulder Plane? Finally (question #3), what about a player who addresses the ball with the Club on the Elbow Plane and then either (a) takes the Clubhead straight back from the ball by raising the Arms vertically and imparting rotation from the Pivot (like 10-6-D, Procedure A.), or (b) moves his Arms straight back (like 10-6-D, Procedure B.)? What Plane Angle would he be using? Would that be considered a shift from Elbow Plane to Turning Shoulder Plane? A legitimate deviation of Turning Shoulder Plane? Or just an "X"?

Oh wait..ya still makes me laugh.